Separation of Oil & State

topic posted Tue, January 31, 2006 - 8:53 AM by  Rocky
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Big oil tanks up: Exxon's profit nears $10B

www.usatoday.com/money/com...-xom_x.htm

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Separation of Oil & State

We, the undersigned, know that the price of oil is too high in dollars and lives Now more than ever, the barriers to a clean energy transition are political, not technical. Hybrid cars, biofuels, greater energy efficiency, solar and wind power are completely viable technologies today. And yet our politicians continue to use our tax money to subsidize Big Oil to the tune of billions of dollars every year. Why? Perhaps its partly because oil companies donated over $25 million to candidates in the US during the 2004 campaign. The first step to ending our collective addiction to oil is reducing oil's influence over our politicians and demanding political independence from Big Oil. We insist that our representatives stop taking money from Big Oil, stop giving our tax money to Big Oil, and start the transition to clean, secure sources of energy now.

www.democracyinaction.org/dia/o...on.jsp

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www.ssc.org/issues/energy/index.php

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posted by:
Rocky
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  • Re: Separation of Oil & State

    Wed, February 1, 2006 - 12:10 PM
    Just make sure you send this to both sides of the aisle. Ted "Vote Quimby" Kennedy is the second biggest obstacle to a MA sea wind farm, citing that it would 'destroy the seascape'. The first? His cousin, Bobby Jr. www.capewind.org/.
    • Re: Separation of Oil & State

      Wed, February 1, 2006 - 12:56 PM
      That is a misleading & false comment. It's NOT either one of them, they are not the 'obstacle'. It's the people of MA that do not want the windmills in their seascape. They work for the people ... Remember? I don't blame them. That is not the only place for windmills. Nor is it the only energy alternative.
      • Re: Separation of Oil & State

        Thu, February 2, 2006 - 11:21 AM
        It's one thing to 'work for the people' as you put it. It's wholly another to be beholden to a tiny minority of the people and their self-destructive whims. A good representative doesn't just vote for what's popular but also what's best for his district/state/nation. The folks opposing Cape Wind are discussed here:

        www.greenpeace.org/usa/camp...cape-wind

        I can amend my previous statement to read that EVERYONE in the U.S. is the biggest obstacle (the Kennedys being two very visible obstacles). There are trillions of cubic feet of natural gas sitting off the Atlantic seaboard, but no one wants to 'deface' their little patch of beach, so no one allows extraction. People like the idea of free electricity, but they are afraid of putting up a few wind farms (which, by the way, canNOT be simply dropped anywhere but must be set up in places that consistently have specific wind conditions, e.g., Cape Cod) for fear of noise (they aren't that loud, and noise cancelling technology is available) and ugliess (they are less ugly than omnipresent power line towers). Not to mention the complete bullshit reason of 'harming the birds'. It is very easy for RFK Jr or anyone else to say "oh, I love wind power" but then hypocritically add a NIMBY disclaimer.

        Rant over. Breathing recommencing.
        • Re: Separation of Oil & State

          Thu, February 2, 2006 - 11:56 AM
          That is another misleading & false comment & link.

          "EVERYONE in the U.S. is the biggest obstacle"

          - Completely false. Just because folks are smart enough to realize that a huge windfarm in that particular place will not supply all the energy demands now or in the future & further, is not worth all the money that would be spent does not in any way constitute 'EVERYONE' to be an obstacle. If you're looking for someone to blame, blame the wind - since it only has five percent of the nation’s wind potential in that area. As I've aready stated, there are other alternatives. Wind Farms are not the only choice.

          These folks are not against wind farms. Especially when they are used & placed properly.

          "There are currently no federal laws or regulations on the siting, construction, operation and maintenance of large-scale wind farms off our coasts," Kennedy wrote. "Our national treasures deserve better."

          Kennedy said a "programmatic environmental impact statement" should be part of the ongoing state and federal review to be sure the Cape Wind proposal, the first of its kind in the U.S., receives "enough state and federal scrutiny to justify its going forward."

          "So far, in spite of all the loud rhetoric on the issue, Cape Wind hasn't met that test and I doubt they ever will," Kennedy wrote. "Until they do, the project should not go forward. Far more is at stake in the decision than our back yards, and I make no apology for opposing this project now."

          Seth Kaplan, who directs the Conservation Law Foundation's Clean Air and Climate Change Project, said the "substantive concerns that underlie the senator's comments are legitimate and deserve respect in the process."

          "If it wasn't for senators like Ted Kennedy, we wouldn't have the Endangered Species Act, the National Environmental Policy Act, the laws that provide the environmental framework that a project like this needs to play out against," Kaplan said.

          www.capecodonline.com/special...nds8.htm

          ---

          Devils in the Details

          "...While one should appreciate Prof. Saito’s concern for the environment and her desire to render the tools of sustainable energy production as aesthetically pleasing forms, one does unfortunately encounter subversive problems with basic matters of fact at virtually every level of discourse in her essay, starting with a rather glaring omission: More than 60 % of the nation’s energy consumption does not even involve electricity.[4] Without much investigation, she declares that the Cape Cod wind imbroglio is merely NIMBYism wrought by an impoverished aesthetic. She simply regurgitates disinformation from the industrial wind camp about new technology inoculating giant wind factories against their ability to harm wildlife. She assures that newer wind technology will not cause significant disturbances to nearby residents. And with the phrase, "Very few people dispute the environmental benefits of wind energy," she embraces the implication that windpower, if pervasively deployed, would be an effective alternative to fossil fuel combustion. None of these notions is true, at least not for most industrial-scaled windplants planned for the uplands and offshore of the eastern United States, given that this region has only five percent of the nation’s wind potential."

          www.contempaesthetics.org/newvo...le.php
          • Re: Separation of Oil & State

            Thu, February 2, 2006 - 2:50 PM
            I will read the linked articles later when I have a chance.

            You've stated "there are other alternatives." Let's hear a few.
            • Re: Separation of Oil & State

              Thu, February 2, 2006 - 4:19 PM
              I refer you to the original post, for starters.
              • Re: Separation of Oil & State

                Thu, February 2, 2006 - 8:51 PM
                What's funny to me is that you accuse me of making false and misleading statements while you cherrypick quotes that support your position and ignore ones that contradict it. I need only refer to the capecodonline article you cited, where you left out these little gems:

                "The location of the Kennedy family's Hyannisport compound would make the Bay State's senior senator a neighbor to the controversial project."

                ...

                "Cape Wind President Jim Gordon yesterday said he agreed the project required rigorous state and federal scrutiny, but he argued the project 'is already undergoing a comprehensive environmental review.'

                "Gordon said the requirements of the National Environmental Policy Act and the Massachusetts Environmental Policy Act 'provides the highest degree of environmental and socioeconomic scrutiny.'

                "'We are currently awaiting the release of a draft environmental impact statement reflecting nearly two years of scientific review conducted under the oversight of 17 state and federal participating agencies,'Gordon said."

                ...

                "On the other side of the issue, the Conservation Law Foundation, Greenpeace and the Union of Concerned Scientists are among those groups saying that current state and federal regulations are sufficiently rigorous.

                "Seth Kaplan, who directs the Conservation Law Foundation's Clean Air and Climate Change Project, said the 'substantive concerns that underlie the senator's comments are legitimate and deserve respect in the process.'

                [MONEY QUOTE]

                "But as for Kennedy's assertion that there are 'no federal laws or regulations on the siting, construction, operation and maintenance of large-scale wind farms off our coasts,' Kaplan was 'very surprised to see that.'"

                The best part was your quoting Seth Kaplan as a supporter of the senator, while in fact he is a) a supporter of Cape Wind, AND b) suprised by Kennedy's ludicrous assertions of a lack of federal oversight.

                I have yet to get through the aesthetics article, but I can't wait.

                Even your original post supports what I'm saying: "the barriers to a clean energy transition are political, not technical." That's obvious from the Kennedys' behavior.

                "Hybrid cars, biofuels, greater energy efficiency, solar and wind power are completely viable technologies today."

                This is all well and good, but I am perplexed about your support of wind power generally but not in Ted Kennedy's back yard. You forgot hydroelectric, btw. I don't mean dams, I mean coastal baffles that flutter with the tides or in flowing rivers, thereby creating electricity. I've done some patent work on this technology, it shouldn't be overlooked.
                • Re: Separation of Oil & State

                  Fri, February 3, 2006 - 7:50 AM
                  Again, none of those 'little gems' contradict anything at all. Especially Kennedy's quotes from above.

                  "Kaplan was 'very surprised to see that"

                  - Proves nothing.

                  "Even your original post supports what I'm saying: "the barriers to a clean energy transition are political, not technical." That's obvious from the Kennedys' behavior. "

                  - This is very obviously completely false. It *IS* both political & a technical problem. It would not be wise to spend $700 million of tax-payer money for this wind farm when the wind potential is only 5% of the national potential - what part of that are we not getting? Has anyone ever figured out that the best place for an industrial size wind farm may be best placed where the wind actually blows enough to be any kind of a benefit?

                  I think you've missed the point throughout this entire thread. Nobody is against wind power so long as it is properly placed where the wind blows & its use will create an energy benefit.

                  "hydroelectric"

                  - That's great! So tell them about it. I doubt that it has been overlooked.

                  Again, I refer you to the original post because until we spearate ourselves from big oil, we accomplish very little.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Separation of Oil & State

                    Fri, February 3, 2006 - 8:26 AM
                    We're not that far apart (and I apologize if I've been coming across a tad crabby). I don't like wasting taxpayer money on boondoggles with no real scientific justification. I like "alternative" energy (pretty soon we'll have no alternative, so we'll need a new term for it).

                    I'm not sure of the 5% stat. If it's from the aesthetics article, I couldn't read the chart, as it was printed too small. And there are no credentials listed for the author, so what's his authority? But even if true, 5% here, 5% there, and you make a serious dent. There's no magic bullet to the problem. Everything potentially inappropriate about wind power has an analogue in solar, for example (won't work in the Pac NW or parts of the NE b/c too cloudy too often; people don't want big collector farms spoiling the landscape, etc., etc.). To avoid wind because it's only 5% of the national potential is like saying 'I have $100,000 in student loans, so why shouldn't I buy a $500 video iPod?'

                    (Incidentally, my quote of 'political, not technical' was from your original post, so don't blame me for that one.)
                    • Re: Separation of Oil & State

                      Fri, February 3, 2006 - 10:23 AM
                      "(Incidentally, my quote of 'political, not technical' was from your original post, so don't blame me for that one.) "

                      - I only balme you for taking it out of context.

                      Again, I refer you to the original post.

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